Jordan 0:00

I think we all have a lot to learn from the way kids respond to big emotional events. Like if, if I do something that makes my daughter upset, she wants to hug me. Yeah. When I apply that same logic to my adult relationships, I'm like, that is not how we respond as adults. Hey Jordan. Hi Lindsay. I feel like I didn't say that. Yeah. Hi. Hi. How's it going?

Lindsay 0:30

Fantastic.

Jordan 0:32

Super duper. Packing for

Lindsay 0:34

Alaska. Hey.

Jordan 0:36

Fun.

Lindsay 0:38

Get out of the heat. Oh my gosh, and the day we leave is supposed to be like only 85 here I know it's actually starting to cool down. I swear to god, but it's gonna be fine. I'm still gonna be very happy out of Out of here. I've been to Juneau and I've been to Sitka now like multiple times. My husband's extended family owns a nice little charter there and we go fishing and we bring back fish for the year. Slash for friends. Yes. Just kidding. Pregnant friends that need those amenities. I have enjoyed

Jordan 1:08

some really nice fresh saltwater fish. Oh my god. It's the best. I can't wait to

Lindsay 1:14

eat the shit out of it when I'm

Jordan 1:16

there. Oh, I'm sure it's the best when you're actually there. It's

Lindsay 1:20

coming

Jordan 1:21

fresh

Lindsay 1:21

out of the water. Yeah. Ugh.

Jordan 1:23

Fresh salmon roe.

Lindsay 1:24

Heaven.

Jordan 1:24

Sweet. Um. Yeah. Did you, uh, did you figure out which direction you're going to put your car seat in your car when you go to Alaska?

Lindsay 1:33

I found the Alaska law, yes. We're out of our car seat and, um, now in a convertible slash booster. And we've had a lot of hot debate about

Jordan 1:45

this.

Lindsay 1:45

As a first time mom, I was =like=, okay, what's my state law and what are the requirements for the car seat for me to make a general decision about forward facing or rear facing? Yes. Didn't even know that there were suggestions out there=====. I didn't even know that that was even a thing. Dude, I didn't even know. I just thought I was like, I'm just going to look for the state law and the requirements and go by that. Yeah. so yeah, uh, I found out what Alaska is and she'll be rear facing in Alaska.

Jordan 2:13

So this all came up when, I, my kid's been in a convertible seat for quite a while now, and I've had her rear facing the whole time because, Didn't even know that. Yeah, so, and, yeah, in, in her, like, car seat manual it said, like, strongly suggests rear, rear facing for safety until, you know, the capacity for the car seat, which I think is like 45 pounds or something that we're nowhere near. So I was like, okay, cool, yeah, we'll install rear facing. Didn't really think much of it after that. And then, Lindsay was telling me on a Marco polo that her, her kid was fussing in the back. And I was like, you know, that's normal. Didn't think anything of it, but she was like, yeah, this like forward facing thing. Isn't like totally going perfectly for us. And I was like, wait, are you sure she's supposed to be, can she be forward facing? But. So I was like, Yeah,

Lindsay 3:01

it was fine though. It definitely wasn't an argument with you. Well, no, no. But it was more like, I was like, Well, yeah, she's hit the requirements for height and weight. Which is

Jordan 3:09

20 pounds in Utah. 20, uh, Right, you said? Yeah,

Lindsay 3:12

20 pounds. Okay, so, The Utah law is 20 pounds or under, the baby must be rear that also means you can choose rear facing after 20 pounds, right? You can do that, but that is the law. her car seat requirements, Like I've already checked this like millions of times and I should almost make it right out of my hand, but I'm fairly certain the minimal weight is 22 pounds and the minimal height is 28 and she, for forward facing, for forward facing. I was like, okay, there's no, that's where she's at. So there's no law for this. And are at this point and she's hit the requirements. Let's do this. Okay. Technically she's safe, right? We're in a safe car, she's in our car seat properly, yada yada yada. However, yes she is more safe rear facing. We all know that.

Jordan 4:07

Now we all know after a big hot debate on Facebook that Lindsay had with a big mom group, we have discovered. Yeah.

Lindsay 4:18

So I don't know if some of you are on this Facebook group, but some of you may be listening in. I am the chick yesterday that asked about the, what I was like, dudes, help me out here. What's the Utah law? Because I'm seeing this as the law and there are a lot of suggestions and a lot of recommendations that are quite literally different. So many suggestions. Our government for our country has a different suggestion than the Utah Highway State Patrol, as well as the hospital, as well as like the National Car Seat Association. Like, everyone is different. So as a first time mom, I'm like, This is overwhelming. Yeah. I mean, as if car

Jordan 4:59

seats aren't a big enough pain in the ass already.

Lindsay 5:02

I just want it simple. What's my fucking state law and what's the requirements on this car seat for me to make a decision. so we did front forward facing for a few, for like a week. Mind you, she's really only in the car like three times max a week at like max. You don't have to defend yourself. I know, but a lot of moms. Definitely chimed in and I'm so grateful for their concern and like their Passion behind like she is not safe forward facing like everyone's like two or more or two or older two or older but there's no law and my I think my My question got a little confused there because I was just wanting to know what the law was and I was just like hey I can't find the law for convertible car seat. Like what are we doing past 20 pounds in this state? Could not find it. And so like, it'll say, it would say like, you should have your child rear facing until the age of two. That's not the, that's not a law, that's a suggestion and a recommendation. So I just want to, I don't even know why I'm so hyped up. I just want to make sure that this is clarified that I was just as a first time mom looking for a law. I was looking at all of the resources and they were all different.

Jordan 6:12

Well, and that's the thing, that's why you're so hyped up, because obviously all of us moms want what's best for our teeny kids. Can't this just be like a federal, so let's just make a single guideline, federal law. Yeah. Across the board. Yeah. And not all this wishy washy, like, well, we suggest this, but we suggest this, and we suggest this. And then every car

Lindsay 6:32

seat company is different for the weight, which is fine because that's their manufactured, like, figuring out. But it doesn't make it simple for us. No. So what I'm doing is like looking for the law in every state that I travel to and going by the law, but I'm also literally going to have her rear facing down until the age of 22, just to say it. Okay, like there's more there's more recommendations and there's more suggestions about the age too. I'm going to go with that so here's the, the gist of it is, get yourself informed. Maybe chat with, maybe chat with some people about what the recommendation is and maybe find out the law as well if you'd like. I think it's probably a good idea to find out the law so if you get pulled over you're not getting a ticket or something. Yeah. And then follow your heart. And then follow your heart. Make a decision for your family. But like I said, I appreciate all the input and all the care on it. Got

Jordan 7:26

hot on Facebook. Yeah. it's a hot

Lindsay 7:30

topic. I mean, safety, I think a lot of safety is our kids. Safety is a lot of, like our US moms are just like Mama Baron. Mm-Hmm And you know, just like trying to do everything the best. And I just was just trying to find the law. Um. And, uh, I think that's probably where I got confused. Yeah. But we got there. We got there. You

Jordan 7:51

made a decision for your family. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, now you can drive with confidence everywhere you go. I am

Lindsay 7:57

sure we're going to get a little input on this, uh, Yeah. I'm sure. Which is fine. And for the record, both of us have our kids we are facing. Yeah. Okay. Alright. I'm seriously, like, chill about it. I appreciate it all because it's really fascinating to learn about, uh, And, um, just know that you're doing the best you can.

Jordan 8:15

Yeah. Anyway, that's, uh, that's the little bit of fun that we've been chatting about this week. But it's not our main topic for the episode, so we can kind of crunch into that now.

Lindsay 8:25

Yeah, um, speaking about, you know, car seats, this, uh, episode is going to kind of be about, like, going out and about with your kid. this is obviously not how to perfect these outings.

Jordan 8:38

No outing is going to be perfect. We all know no outing is going to be perfect.

Lindsay 8:42

Your life is real. I can't. Sometimes things are out of your control. That's not your life. Like tomorrow's a new day. Thank God for that. It's good for your kid to be exposed to like, you know, just kind of random shit. What's up? Ideally, you know, you probably want that sitter for a random doctor appointment or a random, like, outing where you need some space, but in real life, also, your kid's probably going to be tagging along with you. That's very common, and it's really great for your kid to be tagging along with you because they're going to learn a lot about going out and about. Yeah. Yeah. Some of the things that, I've picked up is, like, Having a well rested, well fed kid before even leaving the house. Yes, absolutely. Um, that was like, that's a big deal. allowing more time. Like just kind of scratching in a half hour, hour onto your errand or whatever it may be. Things are going to go a little bit slower.

Jordan 9:38

Yeah, especially if you have a baby who like might need just an extra feeding. Yeah. While you're out.

Lindsay 9:44

Yeah.

Jordan 9:44

That was us a lot.

Lindsay 9:46

Yeah. Or if, yeah, if your toddler wants to stop and look and point and. Look at something very intrigued, like a bug on the sidewalk or something. So, you know, a funny

Jordan 9:56

thing my kids have been into that's on that note is when we go to Costco, they have spooky Halloween decorations out. I mean, it's

Lindsay 10:04

coming up. Yeah. And I've just been doing Instacart on Costco. So I haven't been there.

Jordan 10:08

True. Yeah. But she gets really freaked out by like this, the scary decorations and she says scary decorations. And then she, she'll hug me the whole time. Another day, she hugged me the whole time we were at Costco, so I was like leaned over the cart all awkward. She knew she had to go back. Pregnant belly. Out the door. So it took a little longer than we planned. So yes, a case in point for you.

Lindsay 10:28

Very interesting. Yeah. Because you're like, should I start? Showing her Halloween stuff, like already and

Jordan 10:34

looked at it, and I, you know, I was like, what's, what's scary? And she said, scary mouth, and And maybe I shouldn't have done that, but Like, she probably had nightmares about that werewolf and his scary mouth. Shoot. Whatever, what do you do? I don't

Lindsay 10:49

know. So yeah, that allows more time. keeping, like, your, errands pretty simple, like, one to two. I've, we've been caught on Marco Polo with each other doing multiple errands and, like, we both are like, well, that was a big mistake, so. Yeah. Yep. One to two errands is awesome. Expecting the unexpected. You know, blowouts happen, you might, your child might spill their water completely. You know, so just having, like, being prepared, having extra snacks, having extra hydration, you know, all the things. Maybe a toy, maybe a book around, because you just never know if you're just going to sit in traffic and be stuck and you need to entertain.

Jordan 11:29

Yeah, I always do a snack, like the kind of snack that takes a long time to eat, that's easy to grab and isn't going to spill. That, one of those is always handy in my car. Yep.

Lindsay 11:38

For sure. Yep. So right now we're kind of dealing with a little bit too much heat. With our weather. Okay, so how are we going out and about with our kids when it's too freaking hot out? Because this is obviously tempting to stay in. A lot of people are staying in on like their severe heat advisory days. So there's that, there's some little pointers for indoors in here too. when I'm searching for stuff to do out and about with her and it's too hot, we're running around maybe in town in the morning hours before it gets hot in the afternoon. Finding the shade. Or water outdoors is awesome. So like parks that have shade, there are plenty of parks that have shade, but there are also plenty of parks here that don't have shade. And I don't know what the fuck is going on with that. So anyways, if it's too hot outside find some shade, The pools and the splash pads, the splash pads, there's like, they're everywhere here. which is awesome. I hope that they're everywhere back in other parts of the country too. They're great. And then as far as like going indoors or you know to avoid being outside and it's too hot The library is fantastic. Always a good one. Yeah. Our

Jordan 12:44

library does, and I think most libraries, but our library does like a little toddler or baby book time or like kid activities where they're totally free and you can go in and it's like 20 minutes of like a little

Lindsay 12:57

singing thing. Yeah. And

Jordan 12:58

then they'll have like a little craft day afterwards or like toys. Most libraries, people don't think of this, but most libraries actually have toys that you can just go play with in a section of the library. And that's something that has entertained my kid a lot. I'm kind of a minimalist when it comes to having toys at home. Yeah. But it's really nice to expose, expose her to different toys. So that's cool. It's a cool thing about the library.

Lindsay 13:19

Yep. Museums. Some museums are free if you just got to get on Google and figure out where they're at and what they're, what they're all about. We have a great animal museum here in Provo. That's fantastic. My daughter freaking loves that place. Yeah,

Jordan 13:31

we need to go there still.

Lindsay 13:32

Yeah, you should. It's so fun. this is kind of like random, but Shields is a really good place for kids to go. Or like outdoor store. It's like an outdoor store. It's huge. Like she loves to like, kind of like roam these halls. Big hallway spaces. Mm hmm and get her steps in and just see so she points everywhere when should we go? I'm sure so there's a lot going on Yeah, there's like, you know, she can go grab a soccer ball or something and whatever So shields is actually a pretty cool place to take your kid if it's too hot out so that's when it's like too hot. Obviously, some things to look out for when it is too hot and your kid is like fussing or uncomfortable. Watch for the overheating situation. Overheating is like watching that face. Flush and then up to the head, um, flushing up in the head and forehead area. Um, staying hydrated constantly and obviously snacking often. Mhm. When we go out and about I bring more snacks in and she probably normally would have just to like keep fed and hydrated out in the heat. we walk often. You guys ride your bikes. Yeah. It's, it's nicer for us

Jordan 14:43

because A, I'm pregnant and walking sucks. And you love the breeze. And I love the breeze of the bike. Yes. It gets me off my feet, which hurt during pregnancy. My kid loves it. Yeah. And it's like a little quicker, but we can still get out and like get by the river and stuff. Yeah. Yep. So

Lindsay 14:56

we've been doing that in like the cool, coolest part of the day. So mornings. Yep. And, um, and then like, if you, can't get out in the mornings or the evenings like and you have to get outside and enjoy Outdoors and fresh air and it's warm Grab those little mini fans that you can like clip onto your stroller. Yeah, those are great actually Yeah ice water and then like make sure your stroller has like a shade covering it Yeah, so these are just like kind of random tips and how to be like comfortable out and about yeah. Yeah. so moving on, that is for things that are like weather, weather tidbits about being out and about. you can pretty much turn all of being out and about into a learning experience, all of it. If you're running errands at a grocery store, there's foods and colors all over the place.

Jordan 15:42

Mm hmm.

Lindsay 15:43

There are animal paintings or animal pictures on the walls in our supermarket. Yeah. Out here. Definitely. That's always fun. The parks have objects. You can make mini games out at a park. The library obviously like has like the reading group that you were talking about earlier. The singing and the reading groups is all like a huge learning thing. I kind of like the idea, I got this from, this idea from Sarah Jessica Parker. Yeah. When she was young, she had, she grew up in a big family and she was young and her mom was always telling them as a kid, like, bring something to read from home. I love that. I loved reading as a kid in my mom's car. I read the map all the time. Oh, that's so funny. But like, I think I would love to incorporate like bringing something to read from the house. Even though I have books in the car, I want her to get in the habit of grabbing a book on the way to the car and just have something so that she can like, That's a really good idea. another learning thing, I think I've already mentioned this, maybe not, but just like talking with your child about everything that you see.

Jordan 16:44

Yeah, we definitely do that. My kid's doing letters, so when we see big letters like at the store or something, we'll point them out and say what letters do you see and she'll kind of like be pretty, it keeps her pretty engaged.

Lindsay 16:55

Yeah, that's really cool. another great thing about being out and about just like outdoors is natural light exposure has a great positive impact on sleep. Oh yeah. So part of that being outside is obviously great for health. there's exercise involved with being out and about. Scooting, and biking, and walking, and skipping, and running, and splashing, and swinging. Yeah. Foraging, strolling, like all the things, so yeah, all the exercise is out there too. safety. So this is kind of like something that's interesting too, and can kind of go along with like learning, but just pausing and looking and listening as an adult, and then like observing your surroundings with your kid. Like you can point out. While you're trying to observe your surroundings and make sure your surroundings are safe with your child

Jordan 17:41

Yeah, I've been doing that with my kid like now that I know she's like fully conversational pretty much We when we cross this tree, I'll say let's check for cars. Yes, like little things I'm not teaching her like look both ways necessarily yet. But yeah, just like getting little things like that in her head. Yes

Lindsay 17:57

Yeah, super super awesome There's nothing like I couldn't gift my child more than being aware of her surroundings. I think it's going to be. Yeah. That's the first thing they teach

Jordan 18:05

you in self defense classes actually. Really? Yeah.

Lindsay 18:08

I don't think I've taken a self defense class.

Jordan 18:11

I did when I was like maybe 12 or something. Yeah.

Lindsay 18:13

Interesting. Cool. So being out and about you're with your kiddo is amazing and fun. And Yeah. Bring yourself a snack. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Bring yourself a snack. I always have like a big nut bag of mixed nuts and stuff in the car. And multiple water bottles. I bet you do. Being out with, out and about with your kid. Fun. Makes the day kind of go by, a chunk of your day can go by real quick. So that's my spiel on Out and About With Your Kid.

Jordan 18:53

Not a huge spiel. No, but it's a good one. Yeah, especially for the stay at home moms who need to get out and about.

Lindsay 19:01

Yes. Hey.

Jordan 19:02

Yeah. How many times have I told you that I'm

Lindsay 19:05

about to put my head through the wall? I work and I,

Jordan 19:10

all I want to do is stay at home. Yeah, if

Lindsay 19:12

there was a freaking way that you and I could just split time evenly.

Jordan 19:17

Yeah, that'd be sweet. We'll figure it out. Yeah. Yeah.

Lindsay 19:21

This too. She'll be passed and figured out. Yeah.

Jordan 19:24

Yeah. Good stuff. Well, yeah. Thank you. Yeah. I love those ideas.

Lindsay 19:27

Yeah.

Jordan 19:28

Sweet. Alright, yeah, so we can move on to a trending, a trending topic for today. There are a lot of things I was kind of bouncing between for trending ideas today, but there was one that struck me as kind of a bit more relevant, at least for my life, because it happened to me sort of for the first time a couple of weeks ago, and I've been feeling like I've been wondering about it ever since, and that is whether or not you should make your kid apologize. This is like something that's become like a pretty hot debate online right now. Um, that I've seen in a couple different places. And maybe I saw it, and then Like unconsciously remembered it and then when it happened to me I was like, oh, this is something to look into. Could this like

Lindsay 20:12

bleed into gentle parenting kind of? Oh, for sure. Okay. It absolutely bleeds into gentle parenting. Yeah. Because that's like a big trending topic. Yes. Absolutely. That's like starting to fade out as well. A little, yeah. It does seem like

Jordan 20:23

it's, yeah, like it's on the, on the, uh, I think people are on the fence about it. So basically what came up for us is me and my kid were in bed together just like hanging out playing and she started playing a little bit too rough and like smacked me right in the eye. And it actually like hurt really bad. So I kind of like, you know, I started and I like sat up really quickly and was like, ah, you know, like I actually just had a natural reaction that was kind of strong. I didn't, like, scream or shout or anything, I just was, like, startling, and she kind of looked freaked out, and then her little, like, lower lip just started, moving in this little pout, and I was like, oh no, oh no, she just started crying, and I could tell she knew she had done something. to hurt me or she'd done something that elicited like a negative response and it made her feel really uncomfortable So then I you know calmed myself down as quickly as I could I was like, hey, it's it's okay Come here and we like hugged it out. Yeah, and I tried to just say You know that that was a little that hurt mama's eye, but I'm okay, you know like and then I was like Can you say I'm sorry and she? Couldn't. She was feeling really emotional. but yeah, in that moment I was like, is this a, is this the time to like ask her to apologize or teach her about apologies? Like, and then I, you know, it happened a couple more times over the course of the next couple of weeks. Yeah. Okay. So that's when I. Started kind of like looking into it a bit more, but it is definitely a hot topic right now It's coming up especially a lot in kind of millennial parenting and like you said gentle parenting this whole thing where we're like Hyperconscious of our kids feelings and validating and you know, all of those all those really hot trends that aren't yeah That aren't inherently bad. Don't get me wrong, right? Yeah, so there's like a big trend in that sort of realm Not forcing your kid to apologize, like pretty staunchly against, forcing your kid to apologize when they've done something to hurt somebody else. Right. I guess the idea is based on a premise that you force your kid to apologize, first of all the apology is going to be meaningless, right?

Lindsay 22:27

Yeah, they're not, like, putting it, they don't even understand maybe what the word sorry is. Totally,

Jordan 22:31

yeah. So it's just kind of like, what's the point in the apology if it doesn't mean anything to your kid? And then also people are going so far as to say that it could be harmful, Because it can teach your kid to, like, lie, basically, which is, like, kind of taking it and swinging the pendulum, like, pretty far, um, but say something that they don't mean just to, like, escape punishment, for example, or because you, you know, you're making them, um, which I've seen people argue can lead to feelings of shame, too, which kind of makes sense in moments where they feel like they should apologize, but their emotions are really big. If you're like telling them to say sorry, then you're like also kind of like pointing the finger and like saying you did something wrong and maybe that's not the moment to put that feeling on them.

Lindsay 23:17

so I kind of get that. I'm trying to like reflect on my life and I don't even remember when in my childhood was I taught that and I don't know if it was like in school. Yeah, I was like in school. I mean, I'm sure social setting. Yeah, I'm sure you learn it. This is all very interesting. Like, was that appropriate? Should I have learned earlier? I don't know. Yeah,

Jordan 23:42

it's, it's kind of crazy when you get into it. It's very like layered. =Yeah, totally.

Lindsay 23:48

I guess I like, I could see myself, like if I made the mistake, I would probably just. Be the one to example it for her like mama is sorry mama You know, yeah, absolutely like is sad or mama is overwhelmed Mama is sorry for that. Like I think it'd probably come out like if you did something Yeah, like if I like her feelings raised my voice for a shirt or Yeah, you know This

Jordan 24:16

is something that this is something that they tell you to do so you're totally on the right track. Okay. Okay. So I read an article, In the Atlantic, and I'll link to that in the show notes, that talks about a psychologist who's drawing a distinction between psychological and behavioral control when parents are taking action to like, you know, help guide their kids. Psychological controlling, like guilting, shaming, or being manipulative with your kid, that is really damaging and can lead to problems. In your kids behaviors and psyche into the future, but behavioral control, like having, you know, boundaries around this is what we do in this context, or this is what we do in this context. And just kind of making it like a habit isn't necessarily damaging as long as you're not doing it in a way that is like manipulative or too intense psychologically for your kid. And that's kind of where she draws the line.

Lindsay 25:10

Yeah, like I could see, me showcasing how to, on the apology to my daughter, would teach her a proper way of how to apologize, and that can help close this. Right, or even

Jordan 25:21

just giving her like a little nudge, and not necessarily being like, you, you did something wrong, you need to apologize, like, hey, can you say I'm sorry?

Lindsay 25:29

yeah, this is a whole learning experience for me as a parent. Like teaching her how to say sorry, but like doing it, broadcasting it to her. Yeah,

Jordan 25:37

like being the example. Yeah, totally. Yeah, it's kind of interesting. So my initial, like, knee jerk reactions to these ideas, that you, like, should absolutely not force your kid to apologize, are, first of all, kids don't have, like, the whole, the whole premise is, like, that, that kids aren't gonna actually feel empathy, they're just doing. Like a blanket apology, right? That doesn't mean anything. But kids this age, like my kid's age, she's basically two, kids this age don't have the capacity, like the brain capacity, to actually, like, feel, truly feel empathy. I'm gonna say process all

Lindsay 26:11

of that. Yeah. Yeah,

Jordan 26:13

so I guess that's a fact that could, like, push you in either direction for this argument, but it is definitely something to keep in mind. Also, when kids are in a situation where they need to apologize, like the one I, the example I gave with my kid when she, like, smacked me in the eye. If she had done that to someone else, I would certainly want her to feel like she, you know, would apologize to them. That's like our socially accepted norm, right? Um, but she was having such big feelings and needing some kind of reassurance. Yes. She was overwhelmed because she could tell she did something wrong and she's not quite ready, like mentally, to to process that quickly. So

Lindsay 26:46

like hugging and like, Yeah. Comfort.

Jordan 26:48

So me being like, you need to now do something, she, she's not like the right time for her to learn that skill, right? Like she, what she needs is for her feelings to be like recognized and taken care of by me, the older person who has like a head on my shoulders, right? So that's another thing I think. And then also like, there's another little thing that is feels sort of related where I tell my kid to say thank you, right? And like no one says that's wrong to teach your kid to say thank you. Um, and it's another one of those things where in these social contexts, like someone does something nice for your kid and you say, you say, Oh, can you say thank you? And then they say, thank you. And it helps the other adult feel seen and appreciated. And it's cute when the kid does it. And she does it spontaneously. Now, like I'll hand her like a little piece of fruit or something and she'll go, Thanks. Like, yeah. And it's so cute. She, and maybe she doesn't fully understand gratitude as a two year old. But then, is there something wrong with instilling this little habit?

Lindsay 27:50

Right? Gosh, that's that's so interesting.

Jordan 27:52

Yeah. Yeah. So, I kind of am just like, well, you know, maybe, maybe saying I'm sorry, if you just nudge them gently to say I'm sorry, is a good thing. It's no more harmful than getting them to say, thank you. It's just like something that they will eventually learn a deeper meaning of as they go through life, which is kind of true of basically everything.

Lindsay 28:13

little ones are so observant. And then us just being the example, I think, does a huge part for them. Definitely.

Jordan 28:21

Yeah, and I think that that's also a big part of the argument that people make in favor of not forcing your kid., there's a, there's a, There's an Instagram account called big little feelings and one of their co founders. Her name's Dina Margolin. She's a child therapist She argues that instructing a kid to say sorry doesn't teach them to feel empathy. Like I said, they don't really feel empathy anyway Mm hmm, and there are better ways to teach your kid empathy And like you said, the best one is by example So when you do something that like upsets your child model how you want them to act. And eventually that's the behavior that will stick. so the, the main recommendation here is to like name the harm, describe how it affected the other person. This is probably really good for our adult lives too. Yes. Yeah. I don't think adults are that good at apologizing. We talk a lot

Lindsay 29:07

about in couples therapy, um, about how we feel. Yeah. How does everything make you feel? Cause we don't, we weren't really taught to. Say our feelings much yeah in our lives. Yeah, and all of a sudden we're in this relationship, and we need to express how we feel All the time. We're practicing that, but it's a skill.

Jordan 29:28

Yes. It's a

Lindsay 29:29

whole skill, but like, yeah, go on. Yeah, totally.

Jordan 29:31

So name the thing that hurt the other person, describe how it affected them and validate their feelings and then make some kind of commitment. This is something I wouldn't have done personally, like I thought to do, but make some kind of commitment to your child to not engage in that behavior. In the future. So obviously like if this is something like you have to put them to bed and they're mad at you like, yeah, exactly the time you're going to demonstrate this, but we will all mess up as parents. Yeah. And I don't doubt that there will be plenty of opportunities for me to model this kind of an apology. And it's something that like in the moment. If I need to apologize for something to my kid, I'm probably feeling emotionally worked up too. Yeah. And that's something that like, yeah, you got, like, might not just come naturally even to me. I don't know how that's gonna feel. You know what I mean? So it's good to have a plan for something that you maybe would feel emotional about in the future, I think will help you just to like, do the thing that you want to do instead of acting just based on your emotions.

Lindsay 30:26

So like if, if my daughter is pulling on my hair hardcore or if she, you know, is rough or whatever with play, My knee jerk response to her is gentle to mama or gentle to our dog, gentle to dad, that like, then she recognized, she recognizes that. Yeah. And that feels like a

Jordan 30:48

step one sort of level understanding for you to teach her like. There is a way to treat other people. Yeah, sure. Which is nice. Yeah, totally. She went ahead and swung at Andrew the other day, Oh no. And he

Lindsay 31:02

did the whole like put his head down and like was like, that hurt dad. You know, like, yeah. And she looked so sad. Looked at him and she like, you could tell she was trying to figure out the emotion. What she just did to him. And she like, you know, crinkled her eyebrows and she was like, what just happened? And then all of a sudden she lost it. Oh no. She was so sad to see dad hurt. Yeah. She, and it broke his heart because he's, I I would never do that again to her. Yeah. it's so weird when that moment comes, comes up for the first time, her heart, oh man, that's so sad. She baw the ball. The ball. But there was a lot of hugging going on. Yeah. And like, we're, you know. Just, you know, soothing the situation. But it was very interesting to see her reaction. Like that was the first time she had ever been that sad. Seeing myself or Andrew

Jordan 31:55

like hurt. Oh, that's so sweet. I think we all have a lot to, this is sort of separate point, but I think we all have a lot to learn from the way kids respond to big emotional events. Like if, if I do something that makes my daughter upset, she wants to hug me. Yeah. Which is, it feels, when I apply that same logic to my adult relationships, I'm like, that is not how we respond as adults. Like when Adrian pisses me off, I don't want to hug him. But what if I did? It would probably make our conflicts a lot easier. You know what I mean? Like it would show him like, no I want you to love me. I don't want you to piss me off. We're really

Lindsay 32:32

raising a whole generation of children right now. Dude, it's a lot of work. It's a lot. It's a lot of

Jordan 32:37

work! Alright, so then the uh, one last thing I want to make a point of is people who argue against forcing apologies also say, and I definitely agree with this one, um, that it's important to have conversations with your kid and sometimes Like conversations separate from the incident and sometimes in private, not in front of the people who were involved in the, like, you know, the harm doing,

Lindsay 32:57

that could teach empathy. Yes,

Jordan 32:58

absolutely. Yeah. And then just like go through the scenario with them and yeah, talk about, you know, how to make amends and, and everything like that. On the pro side of the fence. Um, I found an article on psychology today, uh, That gave examples of research supporting the idea that kids, like even little kids, who are on the receiving end of an apology respond, Pretty well to the apology like they're more likely to trust the person apologizing and feel more positive emotions after hearing the apology and it doesn't really matter in those contexts whether the apology was forced by the parent or caregiver or If it was spontaneous the age that that started to matter was like seven to nine years old So for tiny kids, it might actually help if you if you tell your kid to apologize You know, that's this could be interesting for play dates Totally interesting for playdates. Because, like, Because right

Lindsay 33:51

now they're learning how to share.

Jordan 33:52

Totally. And it's not always clean. No. No. Yeah, yeah. So it'll be interesting, yeah, it's an interesting thing to kind of play around with, for sure. Yeah. Another thing that that Psychology Today article, and I'll again link to that in the show notes, said that both types of apologies, forced or spontaneous, help to repair the relationship, but neither type helps the victim feel better as much as making amends does. And I'm like, okay, well what does that look like specifically? Um, so examples of making amends would be like sharing a toy after, like if my kid took one, took a toy from your kid, like her sharing it, her seeing that your kid's pissed and then sharing, sharing it with them. Is an example of making amends, or like if she were to smack your kid. I hope my kid doesn't do all these things, but she probably will at some point. If she were to like smack your kid and then saw that she was hurt and then gave her like a hug. Yeah. Or if you know, you knock something over of someone else's and then they help them to rebuild it. Yeah. So like little gestures of kindness that, that show like that they recognize that, that that thing they did wasn't quite right. That is the thing that helps to rebuild the relationship. and the victim's feelings better than anything else. And, is a good way to teach your, also teach your kid empathy, I think. Like, uh, Oh, you, you knocked that over and it made that kid feel sad. Let's help them build it back up. Yes. it's just another way we can model. Yeah. you know, interpersonal relationship wins. Yeah. So, yeah. So my take at the end of the day, my little hot take is it kind of feels the same as like, I don't know if when you got into baby led weaning, you were like, what the heck? Cause there, it seems like on one side of the argument, everyone's like, Pro purees and on the other side of the argument. Everyone's like anti purees. Yeah, but can I just give my kid purees and yeah So we were like

Lindsay 35:46

making purees chunkier and chunkier

Jordan 35:48

Totally, but like yeah, and the point is like if you're being a conscious parent and you're not psychologically, you know manipulative or being too intense with your kids feelings and You're like being conscious of their feelings and validating them Um And I think it's, there's no harm in gently nudging them into an apology while they're young, just so that they understand this is the context in which you apologize. Definitely going to come up in the future. And it's probably going to be what they do at school too. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. So I don't know. It feels like one of those things that got like totally, Yeah, this was a fantastic trending topic. But that is interesting to think about. So cool.

Lindsay 36:31

Yeah. It's this, this is the kind of stuff that I like to chat about because, yeah, I wouldn't have had this conversation and I don't think I would, I probably would have been like when the time came and I probably would have been like you, like, wait, is now the time? Yeah. Or did she need to learn that in school? I don't know. Yeah. Very cool. I love talking about this kind of stuff. It's fun.

Jordan 36:51

Yeah. So I think I will still say like, Hey, can you say I'm sorry? Yeah. Maybe not quite yet, but definitely eventually. Yeah. And model the behavior and have conversations with them about how people feel. I think it'll all work out in the end. That's what I think. I like it. I like the way you think.

Lindsay 37:10

Great. That was awesome. Yeah. Hell yeah. Cool. wrap it up. Wrap it up with back to the main topic. Sure. Out and about. Full circle. Yo, I can't recommend Crocs enough. Crocs! Crocs! Man, like Croc, you know, we all know what Crocs are the brand. There's off brands, go get the off brand if you don't have the funds or the color or the size that you want in a regular brand of Crocs.

Jordan 37:40

The critical pieces are

Lindsay 37:41

washability, wettability, spray off with a hose, easy to put on, easy to take off. My child knows how to put on her Crocs so easily. Oh, does she really? That's so cute.

Jordan 37:54

With the strap on the back and everything, dang, I haven't even tried to teach my kid that.

Lindsay 37:59

Yeah, she picked it up. She got actually put on her rain boots really well first. Oh, funky. That was really cool. Yeah. Right toe and every Really? Right foot and everything. Impressive. Yeah, there was like maybe like a handful of times in the beginning that was wrong foot, but she figured out fast and then those crocs were like on. Yeah. Cute. Um, but yeah, it's, they're so great. They're easy to wash. They're like, Yeah.

Jordan 38:22

They're the best kid's shoe ever. They're actually, they're, and I've been wearing only Crocs throughout this pregnancy. Yes. Good adult shoes. Yeah, they are.

Lindsay 38:31

She doesn't slip in her kiddie pool. She doesn't slip out and about anywhere. but yeah, these Crocs, they can

Jordan 38:37

run in them. My kid runs quick in them and I'm always like,

Lindsay 38:40

well, be careful on the sidewalk, but she hasn't

Jordan 38:43

eaten shit yet.

Lindsay 38:44

Yeah. We are definitely wearing Crocs in our household and Man, they're just like the best kid, toddler shoe ever.

Jordan 38:54

I feel like that's not gonna change. Like as my kid grows, I feel like Crocs are gonna always be.

Lindsay 38:59

Yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, like you, you're wearing Crocs. I'm wearing Crocs still. Yeah. All the funky designs and colors are out there. I think their stock went crazy amazing over COVID. Interesting. People were camping and gardening way more. And I guess that's true. I'm not caring about how

Jordan 39:18

they look.

Lindsay 39:22

I love that. Yeah. Not that Crocs aren't beautiful. I'm not sure if I'm not sure if I'm on the platform train yet. They have like platforms now. I don't know if I'm there yet. I don't know if I could do that. But Crocs in general are amazing.

Jordan 39:37

Yeah, that's a good recommendation. If you're getting them as an

Lindsay 39:39

adult, get a size up so that you can wear, like, your socks with them.

Jordan 39:43

Yeah, it is nice to wear socks with them, especially when it's like hot. Yeah. Don't want sweaty feet and cracks. Yeah, no. But then you can always just hose them off when they do get sweaty.

Lindsay 39:52

Yes! I don't know, they're the best. They float. They float

Jordan 39:56

in the water. I never even thought of that benefit. Yeah. Oh yeah.

Lindsay 40:00

Anyways, on and on and on about crocs and I'm recommending those on this episode.

Jordan 40:06

I love that for everyone. Yeah. Check them out guys if you don't already have 10 pairs at home. Thank you so much for joining us, everybody. Yeah. Um, check us out at wehavekidpodcast on Instagram.

Lindsay 40:19

Yep. Our website. Hit subscribe if you'd like.

Jordan 40:22

Yeah. Our website is wehavekidspodcast. com. Mm hmm. And, yeah, like, subscribe, review if you feel like it. We are. Yeah. That'd be cool. Let's be your mom. We want to be mom

Lindsay 40:34

friends. Yeah. Let's be mom friends. Parent friends or mom friends. Yes.

Jordan 40:39

Well, we're moms, so we can be mom friends to anybody. Mm hmm. Yeah. Pretty much. Sweet. Thanks so much. We will talk to y'all soon. Chit chat later. Bye. Bye.